ISEs3 Ep10: Dr. Brian Lambert Pt 2 – Co-Founder, Orchestrator, and Value Architect

Erich Starrett: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to inside sales enablement.

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Season three, enablement

history today, Dr.

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Brian Lambert is rejoining

me in the orchestrates sales

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studios for part two of two.

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He is a co-founder of

orchestrate sales.com.

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One of the original hundred-ish four

founders of the sales enablement society.

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And it was cohost of inside sales

enablement, seasons one and two.

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And now back to season three.

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Part two of two with Dr.

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Brian Lambert

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. .

So let's shift gears to this simple pivot.

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That's also complex, of course,

from sales enablement society to

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revenue enablement society, right?

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And even in and around that same

time, you had both Gartner and

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Forrester shifting more towards

revenue over sales enablement.

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There's also a trend from sales

ops to rev ops from chief sales

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officer to chief revenue officer.

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What are your thoughts on that move

and what does what is the difference

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to you between sales enablement

and revenue enablement and what is

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the relationship between the two?

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Or is does only one stand alone?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah, I'm definitely in

the sales enablement space of the two,

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obviously with my history and also, Scott

and I had a lot of discussions about that.

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And, I definitely fall on to

his side of the camp, which is

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revenue as a term sounds cool.

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But when you look at what revenue means,

it's outside of sales conversations.

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It has to do with really,

quote unquote, channels of

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distribution and revenue streams.

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And that's where I really have a

problem with revenue enablement

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because I don't see sales enablement

people and sales enablement teams

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impacting the sales conversation.

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Revenue stream.

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And now they're going to take on the

revenue streams, plural, which is

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really, if you think about it it's

direct selling, which is salespeople.

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It's also indirect it's channels, it's

partners, it's, there's a huge revenue

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stream cloud called, cloud marketplace.

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Where a lot of technology gets

sold and, AWS is marketplace.

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Are you going to take

that on and enable that?

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Are you enabled?

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What are you enabling?

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So it sounds cool, but when you think

about it, it's all the revenue streams

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is really the definition of revenue

and, there's an sec regulation.

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And policy around revenue recognition

and all that other stuff, you end

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up in a finance space that most

people are ill equipped for and

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you're in a strategy space that

most people are ill equipped for.

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To me it's going to it's going

to accelerate the hyperbole and

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it's going to accelerate the, the

inflation of perception and that

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will make the bubble pop sooner.

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In my view because we were, we're not

equipped as a profession to do that.

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Look, as somebody who kind of sits

in marketing right now, they're

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there while I don't but I moved over.

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Marketing in general is way more rigorous

than sales and sales enablement is one

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of those functions that's not really

rigorous compared to their marketing

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peers, compared to their operations peers.

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Sales enablement's more

of the organic function.

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And I just don't ever see an organic

function becoming the revenue stream

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enablement group when they can't even

agree on what is sales enablement..

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I have a hard time believing that

all of a sudden everything's going

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to gel because I've been on the front

lines of getting people to gel for 20

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years and it just isn't panning out.

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Erich Starrett: yeah.

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And you have empathy for, as we started

out with all of those different functions

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and roles you've been in those boots.

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Brian Lambert: And yeah, and I think

there's, when you look at the discipline

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and the rigor, the precision, the

metrics, I think it's really coming down

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to a lot of where's the data and do you

have data to back up what you're doing?

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And most enablement people

don't realize that they're.

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They're pretty much outgunned

by a lot, every other function

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from a data perspective.

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And there, and other functions

are very rigorous around the

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data that they're collecting.

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Erich Starrett: So if I may challenge

you I understand where both you

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and Scott are going when you really

take a very literal, like academic,

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let's look at the word revenue.

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But when I'm interacting with

folks and ask, the everyday

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enabler what does it mean to you?

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What's the difference

between sales and revenue?

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It's oh it just means that

we're picking up partners.

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We're picking up customer service

and we're enabling them as well.

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So through that lens, what I like about

that is if you get away from, you're

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absolutely correct for the folks who

go, Oh, revenue, if you take it, if you

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really look at it, that's not what they're

doing and there's not the capacity for

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it, but if what is actually happening,

whatever you label it is enabling is

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working to expand to better serve.

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And provide value to metrics based

assumed, and trackable to encompass

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partners, which is a soapbox I've been

on to better encompass managers, which is

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I, you and I were completing each other's

sentences on that a long time ago, but

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managers of sales, as well as managers of

customer service and partnership managers,

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and to have a more cross functional.

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Orchestration, essentially, hopefully,

ultimately that goes beyond just sales.

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I like that, and it feels to me

like it's trending more towards

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And elevated future for enablement.

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Brian Lambert: Sure.

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And my advice would be,

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look at revenue from an

income statement perspective.

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So get in your company's 10k, look at

its reporting if you're publicly traded,

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look at how the beans are counted,

make sure you're comfortable with the

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revenue streams of your organization

how profitable are you how much income

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are you, profit are you generating,

where's your income coming from, what's

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your largest and most profitable.

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Area of the business.

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All of those questions

you should be asking.

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Not just taking on a function.

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For example, I was talking to somebody

with a sales name and title and I

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said, Hey, is your company profitable?

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Oh, yeah, we're super

profitable, blah, blah, blah.

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I was like, oh, that's funny.

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I looked at it.

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You guys are losing, 300 million a year.

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Is that profitable to you?

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They just don't know.

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So I would just advise people if you're

taking on This type of role and these

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are the impacts that you want to have.

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You've got to get into the business.

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And that's my point

from the very beginning

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if you don't understand the numbers and

you're not empathetic to salespeople and

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you carry that forward to this idea of

revenue enablement, then you're not going

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to be in the numbers and you're not going

to care about the revenue because you

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don't understand how the actual revenue.

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Works.

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Erich Starrett: Got it.

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Brian Lambert: So before you take

that word should mean something

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to you, just like sales did.

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So I just saw in both of those areas

that the business acumen wasn't there,

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like you would find in other functions.

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And I would encourage, Revenue enablers

or sales enablers to, to definitely

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understand how the money works and figure

out what your accountability is in that,

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um, you should know when people are

leaving the company and why, and

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if they're getting fired for quote

unquote revenue performance, you

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should not look the other way that's

you should call them and hit them on

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LinkedIn and you should apologize,

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Erich Starrett: learn from it.

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Brian Lambert: I've done that.

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I have reached out to managers

and reps who have been fired.

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And I said, Hey I let you down.

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I feel like I didn't do enough to

help you because if I did, then

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you'd still be here and that's on me.

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Erich Starrett: I love

that accountability.

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That is such a shining example of it.

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Brian, what a great best practice.

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So Brian, I'm all about solutions.

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I know you are too,

and all about strategy.

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It sounds to me like through

the course of this conversation,

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there's a huge opportunity for

sales enablement professionals

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to embrace this idea of revenue.

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And have this stake in the ground

of how profitable is my company?

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What are the numbers that

underlie all of that?

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And this is a conversation I've

had just in the last four or five

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months with Hilary Headlee actually

who is, when I think of rev ops,

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she is my global go to person.

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And she's put out some really I

think compelling frameworks around

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RevOps recently that I think sales

enablement could sit on top of.

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And where I'm going with that is what

if starting with reaching out to your

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RevOps counterpart and helping them.

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Or what working with them in tandem

to maybe create a partnership of,

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Hey, I really want to break

down the wall and learn about

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revenue, your revenue operations.

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How can we work together so that I'm

taking your baseline, what you're

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looking at and how you're integrating

and aligning with the C suite.

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And can we work together and partner?

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And if you were me, how would you build

the enablement programs , do you see

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opportunity there as maybe a path forward?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah.

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Ultimately, if sales productivity is

important, , to drive revenue or to drive

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sales, transactions, et cetera, then to me

there's natural fits all over the place.

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One of those is definitely revenue

operations, because to me, Okay.

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If you look at productivity, what you

could end up with is a relationship

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like what you're articulating

where sales enablement or revenue

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enablement or whatever is the idea

of helping people be skilled and

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effective at what they're doing.

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And then sales operations

is more about the process.

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And efficiency side of things and you

end up with both and that's productivity.

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And that, if you can both agree on what

number you're moving that, that could

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be a, quite a powerful combination.

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Erich Starrett: Awesome.

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Great, Brian.

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So we've talked a lot about past

and a good bit about the present.

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What about the future?

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We talked a little bit about what could be

if a couple different things were tweaked.

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I'm fiercely curious to learn more

about what you're doing through

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the lens of AI as someone who

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Has been in the shoes of sales and ops

and sales management and now marketing my

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assumption is, and by the way, if y'all

out there haven't liked and followed Dr.

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Brian Lambert, he's started a series

just in the last month or so, I believe

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that's been in and all around AI through

this vast and differentiated lens where

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he has empathy for all of these different

roles and has been keeping a finger

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on the pulse of digital transformation

and digitization in this new economy.

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So Brian, can you maybe talk about

what as the future and why you're

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personally investing so much time,

not just yourself and research, but

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in sharing that with the community?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah, sure.

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I appreciate that.

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Thought is back to the historical context,

this idea that it was organizations

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first in the siloed thinking.

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So, I believe that, and I

shared that story, those stories

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about silos are a problem.

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So if you look at the phases of

focus, just loosely at, in, in the

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view of organizations trying to

communicate and capture value, they

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started out with this lens of, the

organization is most important.

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And let's be process driven.

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And that's the siloed

view from the late: 1800

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Lately in the last 40 years or

so it's become, employee centric.

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So we had organizational centric.

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Then we went through an employee

centric piece where, employees are

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first employees first in, in that view

and along the way of an organizational

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construct and an employee construct

of putting in organizations first and

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employees first there's always this

debate of where does the customer go?

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In that view.

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I believe the customer has informed

customers informed the organizational

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view and then customers informed

the idea of employees first.

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So they've always been there hand in hand.

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When you look at the digital economy.

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What I firmly believe in now

where things are heading is we're

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going to end up in a data centric.

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Focus.

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So organizational focus is giving way to

employee centricity and employee focus.

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And over the next 50 years, what

we're going to see is a data focus,

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data centric view and paradigm.

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So what that means to me is the future.

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Is in understanding the data, everything

will be digital and digitized and ones

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and zeros are going to be flying around.

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But when you look at where things are

heading, you have to know who's creating

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what data and knowledge and information.

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Where is it and how do

you get your hands on it?

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So let's take a I as an example.

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That sounds really cool.

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And it sounds really super awesome

because you and I can go on our

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employee centric view and we can

hit, chat TPT and ask it questions.

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What should scare people?

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And what does scare leaders is.

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You can't even do that

in your own company.

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So how how would you go to your

own company and get access to all

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of that internal private data?

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And that's in a way that's secure and that

you have access to, but then how would

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you capitalize all of that intellectual

property to go create value for somebody?

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When are you just going to hit

the trillions of website pages

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and that's going to be valuable?

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What about our company?

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Why do we exist?

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And the company is there to create

some sort of value and that's all

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in your internal intranet and all

of the charts and graphs and, slides

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that everybody's been creating.

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But you can't even access

that with chat GPT.

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You've got to as a company moved to

this idea of that, that stuff matters

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because you've spent trillions of

dollars, billions of millions on it.

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And yes, there's intellectual property.

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But if you look at data less

as a byproduct of doing work.

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And as a fuel to the digital

economy, most companies are woefully

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unprepared and most roles are woefully

unprepared as we've explored here

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with this sales enablement role.

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So I think we're going to be in a

data first, digital first paradigm

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and those that understand how data.

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Becomes information, how that

information becomes knowledge, how

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that knowledge becomes insight, how

that insight gets leveraged to make

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decisions and then put AI on top

of that, that's the future of work.

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And so that's where I think enablement is

heading is almost this digital enablement

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space where you have this fusion of.

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Of artificial and human intelligence

that I call collective intelligence.

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I think we're way too much artificial

and not enough human intelligence.

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We need to have a blend of both of human

and artificial into this collective

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intelligence view that says, data is

not just a by product of doing work.

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Data is a fuel and we need human aspects

to that and that type of enablement.

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Is really at a data level.

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So how do, what data do we need

to drive the income statement?

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What data do we need to

drive these revenue streams?

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What data do we need to equip people with?

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And what information do

we need to give them?

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What knowledge do we need to give them?

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But it's all digitized

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AI is on top of it.

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So we move away from coordinating a

sales kickoff physically to how would

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you coordinate that in a virtual

environment without having sessions?

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For example, or how would you take

the idea of a coaching conversation

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and figure out what type of coaching

conversation you should have based

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on the data that's available to you?

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As opposed to your own, experiences,

how would you blend that with real data?

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So there's a digital first world

coming, and I think most people

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are not thinking about that from a.

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Now perspective, they're thinking,

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AI is cool, but if you don't understand

how data works in your company and how

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knowledge becomes power and how knowledge

becomes insight at a digital level, then

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I think you're going to be in a spot

where the value that you're creating is

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a bit redundant because it can be done

by super fast intelligent chat bots.

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the thing that's really fascinating to me

is, I could have a worker, , an AI worker

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that I brainstorm with on my chat GPT.

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And I can brainstorm with my AI partner

easier than I can brainstorm with the

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humans that I work with sometimes.

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Erich Starrett: Cause

they like to interrupt.

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Like I do

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Brian Lambert: no, it's not that it's it's

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Erich Starrett: part of it.

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Brian Lambert: not there's this this

human blend of, that's important.

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And the thing about a computer is

it's, it has this ability to be

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structured and logical that I like.

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So when I have it, when I ask it,

what is sales I don't get the, you

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know, this huge discussion around it.

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It is, what is sales?

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It'll say, exactly what it is.

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So it is a lot more clear than this,

than humans are on things like that.

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Erich Starrett: And if you ask it, if

the company's profitable, it's going

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to tell you exactly and bust out some

numbers that are publicly available.

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Brian Lambert: right, so then it becomes,

so this is why this is important because

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in the evolution of being organizationally

designed and then human centric.

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If we move to a digital centric world,

then it's not just a nice to have.

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There's real meaning to that.

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It doesn't not just a cliche.

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Then you start thinking about

where is the data created?

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Where is it generated?

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Where is it housed?

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How does it move around?

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How do you protect it?

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And then how do you give people

access to what they need?

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So that they can ask questions like that

to get the answers that cut to the chase.

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I chatted in you.

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The chat just now.

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What is sales?

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I got three paragraphs

back and I can move on.

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I don't end up in this

debate about what is sales.

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Erich Starrett: Perfect.

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Just plug in.

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What is sales enablement?

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We have a definition.

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We can all move on, Brian.

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Brian Lambert: Yeah.

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And that's the thing.

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That is the bits and bytes world

that we're heading towards.

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Some point, we have to agree on

things that really matter.

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So like the debate should be

in the space of how do we drive

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more profitable relationships?

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That should be a debate.

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But should we really be debating

what is sales enablement?

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Like that's where I think getting

to the digital first world

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makes a lot more sense to me.

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It's more binary, so to speak.

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Erich Starrett: Insert shameless

plug here for digital now

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: 00:20:22

conference in Chicagoland in April,

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to land the plane, Brian in fact,

one of the things that I've come this

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simple phrase, I like simple learned

that from you and this other guy.

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But that I am a a I curious human

enthusiast and what I mean by that

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is I'm fascinated by all this stuff

and I see it as a huge opportunity

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for enablement for sales to shine.

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: 00:20:52

What if we can offload all of that

administrivia to the robots to do

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those things succinctly, tightly give

us a bunch of ideas, but then make it

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our own and add that human element.

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And I'm hearing that's a large

part of what you're saying.

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And part of the reason I'm enjoying

the series is I'm looking at it through

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that lens of how can I learn from

Brian, what those things are that

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can, first of all, the mindset to help

change the way we're doing business

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in a positive way and be part of that

trend, but also to optimize my time.

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And not fear AI, but lean into

how my humanness is exactly the

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differentiator and by the way, it's

getting all the other crap out of my

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way if I can leverage it effectively.

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Brian Lambert: That's right.

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Yeah, and if you think about

it the there's two, two

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lenses of the future, I think

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on the human element, there's.

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Are you aware of the data that exists?

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That's the bare minimum and

a lot of people aren't even

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aware of what exists for data.

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: 00:21:57

And then there's, are led and informed by

data on the other end of that spectrum?

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So there's data aware to

data led on one continuum.

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And then on the other continuum,

there's the organizational view.

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And that's, how how are

you leveraging data?

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So are you able, are you just

understanding what's there or

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are you actually driving some

level of mastery and changing the

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world around you because of it?

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And when you look at that, you need

to be very data driven data led, but

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you also need to be able to wield it.

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: 00:22:29

And I think that's the biggest challenge

I've had with enablement is we're aware

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that we have data laying around and we're

aware that, people that data is important.

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Just like we're aware that we're

in a digital economy and we're

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aware that, we all have iPhones.

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The challenge is, okay how

do you wield that awareness?

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And I think you have to go

on a journey of maturity.

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You have to mature your digital literacy.

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You have to become more of a digital

master, not just digitally aware.

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: 00:22:58

And then your organization also has

to view data and information as an

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asset, not as a waste by product.

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: 00:23:07

I think that's how most companies view it

is the stuff we create along the way that

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we slough off as we're doing business.

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It's actually quite the opposite.

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That's where all of your value is

and your competitive advantage.

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That maturity has to get there too.

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: 00:23:21

So there's a lot of room to be more

data led and more of a data master,

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if you will, that, that really can

differentiate you in the digital economy.

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Erich Starrett: Brian awesome insights.

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: 00:23:36

As we wrap up and land this

thing, what parting shot would

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you share with the audience?

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: 00:23:43

We love a call to action and

something where folks can decide if

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: 00:23:48

they want to go from what to what

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: 00:23:51

and two things really.

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: 00:23:52

And you started to get into one of them.

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: 00:23:55

What is the opportunity?

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Or is there one if the listening

audience really does want to elevate

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: 00:24:03

enablement and have an enablement future?

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: 00:24:06

What does that look like?

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: 00:24:08

And the subset is what is that one

thing other than and follow Dr.

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: 00:24:13

Brian Lambert and read his articles.

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: 00:24:15

That is an actionable thing

that enablement or anyone in the

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: 00:24:20

listening audience can really

sink their teeth into to take

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: 00:24:25

advantage of this powerful new tool.

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: 00:24:28

Brian Lambert: I think the

parting thing I would give is.

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: 00:24:31

If in the world of from what to

what, there's really , two things.

404

: 00:24:36

One is the idea of that you move from

being data aware to being data led,

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: 00:24:42

and, probably five phases to that.

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: 00:24:45

So I think most people are data aware,

they're aware of the data exists.

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: 00:24:49

But are you able to wield

that data so that you have, I

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: 00:24:52

think that's one continuum and

that's one from what to what.

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: 00:24:57

The other from what to what is thinking

about your role and I would move from

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: 00:25:03

this org chart view and free your

mind kind of thing and unplug from

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: 00:25:07

matrix and think about your role as.

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: 00:25:11

An analyst on one end where you analyze

things to an orchestrator on the other.

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: 00:25:17

Orchestrator is not just a label.

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: 00:25:19

It's a new role in the digital

economy that, it is the role of

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: 00:25:26

orchestrators is to create the

organizational structures of tomorrow.

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: 00:25:30

When you remove silos,

orchestrators are more valuable.

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: 00:25:35

Most people are analysts, they analyze

things and then but orchestrators

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: 00:25:40

are, you're creating value through

the interconnected networks and,

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: 00:25:44

getting, how you get things done

is really manifest in the actions

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: 00:25:48

you take and the results you get.

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: 00:25:51

That's the other one is moved from

being an analyzer to an orchestrator.

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: 00:25:56

And one way to look at that is, what

are you using your chat GPT for?

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: 00:26:01

A lot of people that first got into it.

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: 00:26:04

I know I did was I was trying to

get it to produce things for me.

425

: 00:26:08

But a weekend I'm like, I'm not gonna,

why would I outsource my creativity?

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: 00:26:13

Why would I outsource my outputs to

this thing that I don't even know who

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: 00:26:18

owns this thing, this is early on.

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: 00:26:20

Why don't I turn it around and use.

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: 00:26:23

The AI as a way to give me inputs.

430

: 00:26:27

So instead of generating outputs for me

and copying, pasting them, let me use

431

: 00:26:32

it as a way to get structured inputs

to my thinking so I can synthesize.

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: 00:26:36

Being a synthesis is different

than being in an analyst.

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: 00:26:40

So on the continuum of being an

orchestrator, you have to be a synthesis

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: 00:26:44

first, you have to be a synthesizer of

all this information and AI can help you,

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: 00:26:48

but if you cannot synthesize this stuff

across marketing operations, training,

436

: 00:26:54

sales, customers, let's not forget, then

you're not going to be an orchestrator.

437

: 00:26:59

So I think that's the, from what

to what on that is your role.

438

: 00:27:03

Moving from analysts to, maybe

integrator event planner type person

439

: 00:27:08

to synthesis of synthesizing across

all these functions what needs to

440

: 00:27:13

happen and then orchestrating that.

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: 00:27:16

Erich Starrett: From analysiss as a

individual to synthesis as a cross

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: 00:27:22

functional business a business.

443

: 00:27:26

Brian Lambert: Yeah.

444

: 00:27:26

And then the final piece is

how you're able to wield that

445

: 00:27:29

as an orchestrator, right?

446

: 00:27:31

Like orchestrator is the, it's the

future to me when you remove silos that's

447

: 00:27:36

what I've tried to, because then you,

you end up orchestrating an ecosystem.

448

: 00:27:42

Erich Starrett: I'll let

the mic drop on that one.

449

: 00:27:43

Dr.

450

: 00:27:44

Brian Lambert.

451

: 00:27:45

Thank you for being here.

452

: 00:27:46

Thanks for all that you continue to do.

453

: 00:27:48

And again, folks like and follow and

gain wisdom and put it into action.

454

: 00:27:54

Go from what to what, don't just

listen and sit on your butt.

455

: 00:27:59

Brian Lambert: Thanks so much.

456

: 00:27:59

Thanks, everybody.

457

: 00:28:01

Erich Starrett: Thanks, Brian.