ISEs3 Ep12: Dr. Shawn Fowler - RevenueReady

Erich Starrett: 00:00:00

Hello everyone, and welcome to Inside Sales Enablement,

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Season Three, Enablement History.

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And on today's episode, I

am so excited to have Dr.

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Sean Fowler himself on the show.

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He is an Atlantan I met him through

sales loft who was actually an incredible

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sponsor of the sales enablement society

way before I was even a part of it and

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they're near and dear to my heart as

a company and They, not only put on

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an amazing conference rainmaker back

in my earlier days Where I learned so

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much from sean and his peers and the

amazing people that they attracted but

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they also hosted our first executive

board session when I became president

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of the sales enablement society.

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So Sean, you and sales loft are

a part of my enablement history,

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and I thank you for that.

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And I'm so glad that you are in my

present and hopefully future as well.

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So

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: That's awesome Erich.

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Thank you.

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I'm happy to be here today.

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Be here today.

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Erich Starrett: Dr.

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Fowler was the worldwide director

of enablement and learning for

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this little blue chip company

called IBM back in the day.

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That technology mecca, which informed him,

I'm sure, landing at Sales Loft and being

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the vice president of sales enablement.

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And now is a partner in revenue ready.

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Sean is one of the few folks that

I've met that truly, embodies this

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idea of enablement orchestration.

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Seeing how he interacted with everyone

in the company, he truly ran a cross

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functional enablement business within

a business at sales loft, which is

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one of the three founding positions

of the sales enablement society.

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And he had folks assigned doing different

flavors of enablement within the company.

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And he's been a part of elevating the

profession from his days back in IBM,

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whether or not enablement was a thing.

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Sean, I'm going to hand

the mic over to you.

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Finally.

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Thanks for being patient and

letting me wax poetic for a minute

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah, man.

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Thank you.

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I'm really excited to be

talking to you today..

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RevenueReady is it's been

a long time in the making.

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I first had the idea for the

company before I joined SalesLoft.

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Actually, if SalesLoft had not

offered me a job, I think I probably

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would have started the company then.

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But I don't think I would

have been As good at it.

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So remedy ready is basically

a sales strategy and sales

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enablement consulting company.

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We work primarily with B to B

sass organizations, typically

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series a to B and then on up.

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We've got some public companies

who are customers as well.

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And we basically are trying to.

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Remove the risk of sales execution

from your company strategy.

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There's a lot of reasons

a company can fail.

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Sales execution should not be one of them.

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So that's what we focus on.

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Erich Starrett: And what

about revenue operations.

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: We do

lightweight revenue operations.

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Like we've got some

reasonable rev ops jobs.

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You have to be good at enablement.

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I think, you have to really

understand the data, how to pull

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the data, which data is right for

which situation, things like that.

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But when it gets beyond light revenue

operations, we pull other people in.

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Typically we stay in our lane.

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Erich Starrett: Makes a lot of sense.

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Question number one, Sean.

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What do the words sales

enablement mean to you?

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And when did you first hear them?

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Dr: Yeah, I answered

the second part first.

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I started my entire

career was an accident.

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That's the first thing to point out.

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Erich Starrett: Sounds like my life.

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I love it.

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Dr: I was a, I was at a

company called silver pop.

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I was doing I was doing training.

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So I got hired to be a to train customers,

to be on the customer training team, and

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I mostly got hired to do the technical

parts of the training process because

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I have a programming background.

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So I was handling like the API

training and stuff like that.

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Like the nerdier stuff.

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And I done that for a couple of

years, went into sales engineering.

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Really enjoyed sales engineering.

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At some point they decided to hire

their first services salesperson.

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So I became the first

services salesperson.

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I had a quota that was just services

I had to attach to, new logo deals.

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And really leveled up a lot as a

salesperson during that brief period of

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time, because when you sell services,

you are literally selling outcomes.

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That's it.

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That's all you can sell.

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So you have to really get deep on

understanding what their desired goals

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are, why they can't reach those goals

right now, and helping to paint the

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picture of what it's gonna look like

once you help them become successful.

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We had a newer SVP of sales.

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And he announced in a meeting that he

was hiring the head of sales enablement.

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I was actually coaching a friend

to maybe apply for that role.

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And the hiring manager drew Pronte.

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One of the best managers I've ever had.

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He came to me and was like, Hey, the CEO

said that you should probably be the guy.

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So are you interested?

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I applied.

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I didn't know what sales enablement was.

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I didn't know it was a thing I had

to put together a presentation for

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like how I would handle the sales

enablement role at the time I was

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getting my PhD in educational psychology.

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So I just took what I learned

from working as a sales engineer

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and as a services salesperson and

combined it with what I knew about

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how psychology of learning works.

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And put it together, got the job

and then had to figure it all

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out as I went along at the time.

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That was 2013 probably

is when I got started.

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. Erich Starrett: So that is pre sales

enablement society post Forrester

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definition, starting to officially see it

clearly as a position and a function or

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else it wouldn't have been posted for you.

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Dr: Yeah.

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Shortly after I took

the role of silver pop.

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It was pretty clear to me.

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I didn't know what I was doing it.

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I remember we had a contract with

Serious Decisions, who is, I think

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they're owned by Forrester now.

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So at the time it was

just Serious Decisions.

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They focused primarily on marketing.

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And we had a contract with them and

I had the opportunity to go to a

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sales enablement event in Atlanta.

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There were other sales enablement

practitioners there, and it was incredible

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because there were other people,

some of them knew things I didn't.

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Most of us were all trying

to figure out the same thing.

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Serious decisions, had

some ideas around it.

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It was like super useful.

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And I remember leaving that event.

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And thinking I think we need

to start something where we

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do that on a regular basis.

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This was easily the most valuable

thing that I've done in the

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last six months, you know?

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But I was trying to get a PhD at the time.

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I had two small kids, had a full time

job, like I had, a lot of stuff going

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on, but I was happy that they were

just other people who were dealing

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with the same problems that I was, and

they were trying to find a way forward.

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It was useful to meet other people

who are doing the same things.

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Most of my mentors were actually people

that I worked directly with though.

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I've been fortunate to have had some

really good bosses at Silverpop.

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My boss, the head of rail ops

and enablement was Drew Pronte.

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And he reported to our SVP of sales,

Todd McCormick, both of those guys,

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I think had gone through both PGI and

career builder, if I remember correctly.

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And so those were really

good sales organizations.

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If you're in Atlanta, there was a

period of time where most of the

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people that you knew were probably

part of that diaspora, and so

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Erich Starrett: That is

a doctor word, diaspora.

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I'm going to have to look

that one up afterwards.

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I love it.

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: Getting a seat

at the table was probably the

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biggest factor in helping me be

successful in sales enablement.

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I had bosses who gave me a seat

at the table early on., Todd would

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pull us both in and be like, Hey,

here's what I'm seeing with the team.

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What do you think's going on here?

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And we would look at the data and

we would talk to the management and

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we would try to figure out what the

solution was and we would try stuff.

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And I didn't understand how things

operated at that strategic level.

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Until I got into that role and the fact

that I got to sit there and at first

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I didn't provide much value candidly.

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I could give them context based

on my experiences in the field,

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which I had a lot of, but I didn't

understand the physics of sales, right?

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And I learned all those

things from working with them.

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And then we were acquired by IBM and

I had the opportunity to see what it

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looks like in a much bigger level.

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I was part of a business unit that

it's IBM's basically a handful of multi

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billion dollar companies all put together.

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And I was part of one of those multi

billion dollar companies inside of it.

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Our business unit was, and I got to see

how these really big enterprise complex

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sales work, how you have to, Enable people

across multiple different continents.

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By the time I left, I was responsible

for both internal sales enablement

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and partner enablement as well.

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And the partner ecosystem is

really important if you're at IBM.

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And so you have to really distill down

what those value propositions are for

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the different products that you have,

who the personas are from the buyer

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perspective, what the challenges are that

they solve to make it clear to everyone.

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What they should be looking for and

how to tell the most effective story.

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Erich Starrett: Great backstory, what

I just heard you say is you're actually

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the first person on the show that has

said, I was doing partner enablement.

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We'll get to a minute, the shift from

sales enablement to revenue enablement,

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but part of that is encompassing partners

for sure, which I've always seen part

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of it and customer service, but you

were doing it all the way back to IBM.

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah, even in the first

role at silver pop, I had both new and

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existing sales under my purview, right?

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So I had the new sales team, like the AEs,

the SDRs, the sales engineers, but I also

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had the account management team, the CS

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And I think it makes a lot of sense,

honestly, when you are in that

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position where you've got both,

you New sales and existing sales.

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You have the opportunity to

identify and eliminate a lot of the

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organizational issues that negatively

affects your customer and that

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negatively affect the team as well.

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So I like having that opportunity.

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Erich Starrett: Agreed.

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And in the pre-show, we were talking

a little bit about how important it

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is to have either A, failed yourself

in approaches and or B, been the at

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a place or walked alongside others

who have been through a failure

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convert it to wisdom, and that's

where good enablement comes from.

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Through that lens.

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It sounds like almost natural

presupposition to do those things that a

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room of 100 people were just starting to

think about and I would argue still aren't

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being fully executed in enablement today.

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What led you there?

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: There's a few

things that we could unpack there.

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I'll start with the, what led you there?

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Like most of everything that I've

learned how to do, first off, when

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you talk to anybody who's been

doing enablement for a while, almost

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everybody does the same thing.

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The reality is there's a handful

of things that work, and we all

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make enough mistakes until we

figure out those things that work.

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The problem is, I think there's not enough

sharing of best practices, candidly.

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That's 1 thing because.

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When you figure out what works, you

have other people who are just other

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companies, other CROs, other heads of

enablement who are trying to figure out

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the same thing, solve the same problems.

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And most of them go through

and make the same mistakes that

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other people have already made.

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So that's a pretty common issue.

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There's a second factor here,

though, that I think is interesting.

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I think that the quality of sales

enablement as a professional has

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gone down pretty dramatically

in the last five years.

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In fact, I think the quality of

sales enablement has gone down as

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it's become increasingly prominent

because You There's a few reasons.

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Number one is I think a lot of heads of

sales know they need sales enablement.

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They're hearing from their investors

that they need sales enablement.

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But there was a period of time

where I don't think a lot of

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them really knew what it meant.

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And over again, even now we'll talk

to heads of sales who are looking

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to hire a head of sales enablement

or their only sales enablement hire.

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And we're like, Hey, what

do you want them focused on?

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And they really have one

or two projects in mind.

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But then when you ask what you want them

to do after that they're not sure they

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have immediate needs of things they want

done, but in an ongoing basis, they're

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not quite sure what that should be right.

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If the CRO isn't clear about what they

want the head of enablement to do,

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and the head of enablement's not going

to be clear about it unless they've

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done it before and they know what

they should be focused on and they

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can earn that credibility with the CRO

and the rest of the leadership team.

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And that's a big, if that requires a

lot of things that you have to have

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done in order to be in that position.

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The second thing is I think

heads of sales aren't always

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great at hiring and enablement.

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Ahead of sales probably was an SDR,

probably was an AE, probably was a

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manager, was a second line manager, right?

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They've done those jobs before and

they've hired for those jobs, probably

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dozens of times, sometimes hundreds

of times, they maybe hire two, three

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sales and people over the course of a

lifetime, like that's so recognizing

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talent can be difficult as well.

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And then there's a final factor, which

is I think there's a lot of fluff.

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Sales is never easy, but comparatively

there was a period of time in the

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mid to late 2010s where there was

a ton of venture capital at play.

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So lots of people were hiring,

it was easier to get results.

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There was a good economy.

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There were a lot of frankly,

SaaS companies who were just all

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buying stuff from each other.

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And so sales was a lot easier.

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And I think there's an entire

generation of people who are in sales

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enablement, who didn't have to figure

out how to build a better machine.

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They could get away with adding

more people to the machine and

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adding revenue by doing that.

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And now venture capital

has dried up a lot.

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People aren't hiring as much.

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There's a much bigger

focus on productivity.

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Productivity per rep in particular, in

order to achieve productivity per rep,

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you have to build a better machine.

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And I think that's the thing that everyone

really needs to be focused on right now.

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It means you really need to understand

the market that you're selling to.

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It means you really need to

understand where the friction

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points are, both for your customers

and for your internal teams.

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And you really need to figure out how

you optimize every step in the process.

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And that takes a Domain expertise

that takes background knowledge, and

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it also takes strong organizational

and communication skills so that

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you can affect the change management

that's required to get results.

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Erich Starrett: That was phenomenal.

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So to read that back a little bit, there's

not enough focus on strategically thinking

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about the cross functional revenue engine.

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That first position that they're a

are different flavors of enablement

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and be that it to be effective.

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It needs to be run cross

functionally, and they didn't use

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the word but and strategically.

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So there's kind of two sides of the coin.

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And neither side is in good repair.

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Meaning the folks who are hiring for

enablement don't necessarily know what

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that role does strategically other

than tactically coming in and doing a

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project or two that has a beginning,

middle, end, and is fixing something.

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And number two, you don't have the

talent pool that has that ability going

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back to chief productivity officer now

that we need productivity per person.

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And it's not just.

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It's not just throwing

additional heads at it.

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Ramping those heads up as quickly as

possible, which is also an element

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of productivity, but it's a there's

a lot more strategy in creating more

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from less than just bringing in more

so that does that land about right?

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah..

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And I , I feel like I'm dogging

on sales enablement practitioners.

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I'm not, I don't think

people are bad necessarily.

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I just think that they

didn't have to be good.

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So they didn't learn how to do some

of the hard things that you have to

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do to really build a better machine.

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, I think that two years from now,

the people who are still in sales

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enablement will be pretty damn good

at what they do because they will have

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had to have figured it out, right?

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Erich Starrett: I'm with you.

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What I'm hearing is not negativity

per se, it's opportunity.

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yes.

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That is a great phrasing.

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Erich Starrett: Thank you.

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There is opportunity here.

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One question in your current business,

how do you address the, we'll call it the

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buyer side of sales enablement, right?

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How do you help your current clients

and maybe that will inform some

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folks out there listening who are

CRO CMO, even chief strategy officer.

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: 00:16:15

We've got Tim Reister over at corporate

visions is a CSO with enablement reporting

309

: 00:16:19

to him, which is one of the interesting

implementations I've seen of enablement.

310

: 00:16:24

How do you get your clients up

to speed to address that need

311

: 00:16:28

and harvest that opportunity?

312

: 00:16:31

Dr. Shawn Fowler: there's

a couple of things.

313

: 00:16:31

When it comes to like the customer

journey and how customers buy and

314

: 00:16:34

eliminating friction for them.

315

: 00:16:36

One of our most common initial projects

with customers is a customer journey

316

: 00:16:40

workshop, because if you haven't

really sat down with all of the major

317

: 00:16:44

stakeholders involved internally, And

intentionally designed to process,

318

: 00:16:50

you probably have massive gaps in

what we uncover over and over again

319

: 00:16:55

is especially during the handoffs,

320

: 00:16:57

Everybody thinks somebody else is

doing something and nobody's doing it.

321

: 00:17:02

Or they think somebody else

should be doing something and

322

: 00:17:04

there's not agreement on that.

323

: 00:17:05

Or there's a whole bunch of data

that's needed for one part of

324

: 00:17:08

the process that's not created

by the other part of the process.

325

: 00:17:11

And so you have these moments

where there's a lack of alignment

326

: 00:17:15

or a lack of insight that occurs

throughout the entire process that

327

: 00:17:19

negatively affects the customer.

328

: 00:17:20

And so you have these situations

where let's say I go to a web form

329

: 00:17:24

and I'm reading about these like

value propositions essentially that

330

: 00:17:28

can solve the problems that I have.

331

: 00:17:29

I fill out the web form

and then I get a response.

332

: 00:17:33

And somebody calls me six

times while I'm in meetings.

333

: 00:17:36

And finally I pick up and

I'm like, Oh, this is great.

334

: 00:17:39

Yes, let's talk.

335

: 00:17:40

I would like to solve this problem.

336

: 00:17:42

And then I have a conversation and they're

like, what's the problem that you have?

337

: 00:17:45

Okay let me ask you some pretty demeaning

questions about whether you're important

338

: 00:17:50

enough to It sounds like somebody's

saying are your mommy and daddy home?

339

: 00:17:53

And then, they're like, okay, it

sounds like we can definitely help you.

340

: 00:17:56

Let me put you on the phone with

somebody else who can help you.

341

: 00:17:59

That sucks like now I, like I just filled

out a form Oh, let's schedule something.

342

: 00:18:04

Let's go.

343

: 00:18:04

Like, why do I have to talk to?

344

: 00:18:06

And then you hop on the call with the

AE and let's say the AE does a fantastic

345

: 00:18:09

job and they show you a great demo

and they figure out what your projects

346

: 00:18:12

problems are and they help you prioritize.

347

: 00:18:15

All that stuff and the deal closes and

then you get introduced to somebody else.

348

: 00:18:21

And you have to have all the same

damn conversations again, all the same

349

: 00:18:26

.

As a buyer.

350

: 00:18:27

This is what will really open your eyes.

351

: 00:18:28

I spent years as a buyer.

352

: 00:18:29

And I was like, this sucks.

353

: 00:18:31

This sucks.

354

: 00:18:31

This sucks.

355

: 00:18:32

Like all the different things that I

felt as a buyer made me a much better

356

: 00:18:35

salesperson, but what it was like to

go through those steps in the process.

357

: 00:18:39

And so we really pay a lot of attention

to what happens during the transitions.

358

: 00:18:44

And a lot of what we focus on, we do these

workshops, Is creating the disagreement

359

: 00:18:51

that is required for actual agreement

and creating a safe space where we

360

: 00:18:57

can moderate those disagreements and

come to a conclusion that I don't know

361

: 00:19:01

if you're familiar with the Patrick

Lencioni stuff, Disagree & Commit.

362

: 00:19:04

Like at some point, whoever's is making

the call in the room has to make the call.

363

: 00:19:08

There's going to be disagreement,

but everybody understands why that

364

: 00:19:11

decision was made and everybody's

committed to walking out and executing.

365

: 00:19:14

The steps necessary to bring this

desired customer journey into reality.

366

: 00:19:19

It's a workshop typically, right?

367

: 00:19:21

Like a two day.

368

: 00:19:21

Yeah.

369

: 00:19:22

Erich Starrett: A role play on steroids.

370

: 00:19:23

It's a flavor of whenever someone comes

to me with a problem, I'm like, great,

371

: 00:19:27

bring it, but bring a solution or three,

at least the beginnings of it, it sounds

372

: 00:19:31

like that's the same kind of thing you

do in that room is we're not going to

373

: 00:19:34

get it perfect, but can everyone nod

their head that this is the path forward.

374

: 00:19:37

Back to this idea that there's

opportunity for enablement, How do I?

375

: 00:19:43

Sean get up to speed in a way that I can

come in and pick up where you left off

376

: 00:19:49

And be that strategic sales enablement

revenue enablement partner in perpetuity.

377

: 00:19:54

Is there, what does that look like

other than failing a bunch learning

378

: 00:19:59

and, actually trying to meet that

bar of not just ramping up a whole

379

: 00:20:04

bunch of people, but taking what I've

got and bringing more productivity.

380

: 00:20:08

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah.

381

: 00:20:09

So there's a couple of things we focus on.

382

: 00:20:11

Number one, we document

everything that we do and we do.

383

: 00:20:15

We do like a playbook playbooks are great.

384

: 00:20:18

I understand.

385

: 00:20:19

I've written so many playbooks in my life.

386

: 00:20:21

Almost somebody reads the playbook, but

it's useful to have it because sometimes

387

: 00:20:24

you do have to reference stuff in it.

388

: 00:20:25

So the people can just take a

quick look, like a cheat sheet.

389

: 00:20:27

This is what I'm supposed to do

at this stage in the process.

390

: 00:20:29

This is the way it works.

391

: 00:20:31

And if it changes, you have to update it.

392

: 00:20:32

So we work on creating governance.

393

: 00:20:36

For change, usually when we do

these projects so that there's

394

: 00:20:39

a process in place by which

people can actually make changes.

395

: 00:20:43

The second thing, and this is actually

the most important thing is we

396

: 00:20:47

build as much as possible, the best

practices directly into the process.

397

: 00:20:53

So that as you execute the

process, you are actually

398

: 00:20:57

improving the process as well.

399

: 00:20:59

And it takes time to do that,

but it's really important.

400

: 00:21:02

The third thing is we involve

the managers and the reps in the

401

: 00:21:07

creation of the processes themselves.

402

: 00:21:10

This is very often what happens is you

have these top down approaches to a

403

: 00:21:15

sales process or a top down approach

to messaging or a top down approach

404

: 00:21:19

to negotiation or skill development

or whatever you want it to be, right?

405

: 00:21:23

And it falls flat.

406

: 00:21:24

It falls flat for a couple of reasons.

407

: 00:21:26

Number one, When you do it top down,

a lot of times you don't actually

408

: 00:21:29

have the tactical information you

need from the field to make good

409

: 00:21:32

decisions, to design a good solution.

410

: 00:21:34

In fact, a lot of times you haven't

correctly framed the problem.

411

: 00:21:36

And if you haven't correctly framed

the problem, you're never going

412

: 00:21:39

to find the right solution, right?

413

: 00:21:40

So we make sure we involve managers

and reps in the problem framing and

414

: 00:21:47

in the solution process, because

that's going to give us a much better

415

: 00:21:51

picture of what's actually happening

and what the real problems are.

416

: 00:21:54

It's going to give us

a much better solution.

417

: 00:21:55

Plus.

418

: 00:21:56

When it's time to roll that

solution out, we've already

419

: 00:21:59

had all the holes poked in it.

420

: 00:22:00

We spent weeks having meetings

where people were poking holes and

421

: 00:22:04

we're iterating and we're iterating.

422

: 00:22:06

So it's a really good product that

those people are now going to champion.

423

: 00:22:10

Those people help design it.

424

: 00:22:11

If you get the right people in the room,

you've got really powerful champions

425

: 00:22:14

who can go out and get other people.

426

: 00:22:17

To adopt it, the managers are

already aware of what's going

427

: 00:22:20

on because they help shape it.

428

: 00:22:21

Plus we do extensive manager training

before we ever roll anything else out.

429

: 00:22:25

And then we do manager

reinforcement training.

430

: 00:22:27

So we create these methods, these avenues

for reinforcement as part of the project.

431

: 00:22:32

So that for the next month or

quarter, there's going to be

432

: 00:22:36

people who are actually working to

drive adoption of those changes.

433

: 00:22:39

And the reality is the project

itself, the intervention itself is

434

: 00:22:44

usually about one fifth of the amount

of time it takes to get results.

435

: 00:22:49

The other four fifths is all the stuff

you do before the project and all the

436

: 00:22:52

stuff you do after the projects to create

alignment, to get buy in, to design

437

: 00:22:57

a really effective intervention, and

then to actually do the reinforcement

438

: 00:23:01

that's required to drive real change.

439

: 00:23:04

Erich Starrett: We've got a listening

audience here of enablement practitioners.

440

: 00:23:07

Is it a, "and we recommend getting a sales

enablement professional" at the end of

441

: 00:23:12

that if they don't have someone on staff.

442

: 00:23:15

Or is it a, pretty much we've given

you the engine you need to maintain,

443

: 00:23:22

just keep doing what you're doing.

444

: 00:23:24

Dr. Shawn Fowler: A lot of

our customers have existing

445

: 00:23:27

sales enablement staff, right?

446

: 00:23:28

It's just, two or three.

447

: 00:23:30

And for this project, you need,

three or four more for six months,

448

: 00:23:33

like that's the reality is there's

certain pieces of infrastructure that

449

: 00:23:36

are really heavy to put in place.

450

: 00:23:38

Or you need to move quickly to get

these changes in place and your team

451

: 00:23:41

doesn't have the bandwidth to do it.

452

: 00:23:43

Like those are the most common

situations we get involved in.

453

: 00:23:46

If we are working with someone who

doesn't have sales enablement at all,

454

: 00:23:50

usually there's a chief of staff or

a head of rev ops, or somebody who is

455

: 00:23:56

a manager who we use as our primary

point of contact, who's the change

456

: 00:23:59

agent internally in those situations.

457

: 00:24:02

But we pretty much always recommend that

they hire someone to own an enablement

458

: 00:24:06

over the long term, because if nobody

owns it, it's not going to get done.

459

: 00:24:09

Erich Starrett: Outstanding.

460

: 00:24:10

And therein lies, I think the

answer to my question, which is.

461

: 00:24:13

Hey everybody out there in enablement

land if you feel woefully unequipped to

462

: 00:24:18

do all of those things that dr Fowler

is sharing bring on RevenueReady because

463

: 00:24:23

you're going to be part Seriously,

you're going to be part of that team

464

: 00:24:27

that the best way to get trained is to

walk alongside He and his advisors at

465

: 00:24:31

revenue ready and learn alongside them.

466

: 00:24:34

And then you do that in perpetuity, right?

467

: 00:24:36

That would be the answer.

468

: 00:24:38

There's not a secret place to go off and

study or at least currently a place to go

469

: 00:24:44

and interact and get those best practices.

470

: 00:24:46

Dr. Shawn Fowler: I think you should

design our sales pitch, Erich!

471

: 00:24:48

Yeah.

472

: 00:24:49

This is actually an important

thing to talk about though,

473

: 00:24:51

because I've been in this situation

before as a head of enablement.

474

: 00:24:53

It's hard to get headcount.

475

: 00:24:55

It is very hard to get headcount, but

the reality is your boss wants results.

476

: 00:25:00

Like the company needs results.

477

: 00:25:01

And one of the things that I think

a lot of companies are realizing

478

: 00:25:05

right now is because things

are, I've gotten harder to sell.

479

: 00:25:08

" Your ability to thrive as

a company depends directly

480

: 00:25:12

on your ability to change.

481

: 00:25:13

To effectively manage change.

482

: 00:25:15

The companies that make it are the

ones who can accommodate the changes

483

: 00:25:18

as they evolve in the market, they

have change management functions

484

: 00:25:22

built in to their strategy and that's

what sales enablement really is.

485

: 00:25:27

Sales enablement is the change

management arm of revenue."

486

: 00:25:30

That's what it is.

487

: 00:25:31

And if you don't realize that you're

never going to hire the right people.

488

: 00:25:35

You're never going to give them

the seat at the table they need.

489

: 00:25:38

But if you do realize that, then

whenever you have to change pricing or

490

: 00:25:42

your competition got better or whatever

it is you have to accommodate, you've

491

: 00:25:46

got this ability to evolve quickly

and rapidly and roll with the punches.

492

: 00:25:51

Erich Starrett: Sean, you just took

the words right out of my mouth.

493

: 00:25:55

Sales enablement, revenue

enablement is the change

494

: 00:26:00

management of the revenue engine.

495

: 00:26:03

What you and your team come in and

do, what a good solid RevOps team does

496

: 00:26:07

from the ground up, but Hillary Headlee

over at Insight Partners, and informed

497

: 00:26:11

by her having run, at zoom, both

rev ops and sales enablement, right?

498

: 00:26:18

And now she's doing it

for five, 700 companies.

499

: 00:26:21

That's what good looks like.

500

: 00:26:23

It's that incubated in a well

thought out strategic cross

501

: 00:26:28

functional engine where all the

seats of the table are represented.

502

: 00:26:32

And then having an enablement

professional who can take that.

503

: 00:26:36

Be a change manager and be the

bidirectional voice of that entire

504

: 00:26:41

engine out to sales out to now partners

and to customer service and back in.

505

: 00:26:47

And that's the important part.

506

: 00:26:48

And a lot of times that back

end part's not happening.

507

: 00:26:52

And another opportunity I see,

and I'd love to hear your thoughts

508

: 00:26:56

for Sales or revenue enablement

is getting in the trenches, right?

509

: 00:27:02

So you can be the voice of sales and

the customer and bring that back in

510

: 00:27:06

and now you're really cooking, right?

511

: 00:27:09

Dr. Shawn Fowler: It's nice to be in the

industry for a while because you meet

512

: 00:27:11

a lot of people and I end up talking

to a lot of like people who are newer

513

: 00:27:15

in their careers or like mid career.

514

: 00:27:17

Who are getting their first kind

of, I'm the only enablement person

515

: 00:27:20

opportunity is where I'm the first

head of enablement opportunities.

516

: 00:27:24

And something they ask a lot is what

should I have this interview with the

517

: 00:27:27

CRO, it's my last interview tomorrow

what do you think I should focus on?

518

: 00:27:30

And the thing I always say is the

first 90 days, like really, you really

519

: 00:27:34

need to think through what you're

going to do in your first 90 days.

520

: 00:27:36

How are you going to

structure your first 90 days?

521

: 00:27:39

And one of the things that I've always

focused on whenever I've joined a company

522

: 00:27:42

is I need to being in the top 10 sales

reps, I need to learn enough that if I

523

: 00:27:49

need to go sell this, I can go sell it.

524

: 00:27:51

I understand the market.

525

: 00:27:53

I understand the product.

526

: 00:27:54

I understand the problems solve.

527

: 00:27:56

I the competition does.

528

: 00:27:57

Cause if you can't do that, why should

anybody listen to what you have to say?

529

: 00:28:02

That's just the reality.

530

: 00:28:03

Like you need to be able to go have the,

you don't have to be the best, right?

531

: 00:28:07

But you should probably be in the top

10 to 15 percent if you had to be.

532

: 00:28:10

Erich Starrett: And back to role play

man If you can legit spar with the

533

: 00:28:14

top 10 of the company You're going

to provide such an amazing service,

534

: 00:28:19

it's getting out on the court with

those better than you, making you

535

: 00:28:22

better and you making them better.

536

: 00:28:24

Dr. Shawn Fowler: And if they have a Gong

or a SalesLoft or a Clari I guess Chorus

537

: 00:28:27

Clari, whatever, if they have that you

have no excuse not to be able to do that.

538

: 00:28:32

That's straight up.

539

: 00:28:33

Like you can sit there and listen to

the calls that the best sales reps made.

540

: 00:28:37

You can listen to the

calls that people wash.

541

: 00:28:39

You can listen to the calls where you

got the, you can listen to all that.

542

: 00:28:43

And if you do two a day for a month,

you can go a long way towards really

543

: 00:28:48

understanding what works and what doesn't.

544

: 00:28:50

Erich Starrett: Awesome sean.

545

: 00:28:51

Let's shift to the move from sales

enablement to revenue enablement You

546

: 00:28:55

I'm curious what that means to you.

547

: 00:28:58

Dr. Shawn Fowler: First thing is I don't

know how much I care about the name change

548

: 00:29:01

because I think sometimes people just

use different words to sound different.

549

: 00:29:06

I do like the idea of sales enablement

truly being a revenue enablement.

550

: 00:29:10

But there's a good way and a

bad way for that to work out.

551

: 00:29:13

The good way is that they

actually have a seat at the table.

552

: 00:29:17

They're involved in the diagnosis

of the problems and coming up with a

553

: 00:29:20

strategy and frankly, prioritization.

554

: 00:29:22

Prioritization is really one of the

keys to success in enablement in that

555

: 00:29:26

they can actually help solve straight

up revenue problems, not just sales

556

: 00:29:30

problems, but it means that you need

to be resourced so that you have people

557

: 00:29:33

aligned to both of those leaders.

558

: 00:29:34

If there are separate leaders,

that's super important to me.

559

: 00:29:37

The bad way is it just slowly

evolves into L and D I don't

560

: 00:29:42

have anything against L and D.

561

: 00:29:43

I started my career in L and D.

562

: 00:29:46

But that's not what sales enablement is.

563

: 00:29:48

That's not what revenue

enablement should be.

564

: 00:29:50

And I see a lot of companies where it's

revenue enablement in name, but it's

565

: 00:29:54

glorified L and D and I don't think

that's the best use of enablement.

566

: 00:29:59

Erich Starrett: and back to

those founding flavors, they're

567

: 00:30:02

stuck in talent development only

and not thinking strategically?

568

: 00:30:09

Dr. Shawn Fowler: A lot of times

they don't have the domain expertise

569

: 00:30:11

to help shape the conversation

either in that situation.

570

: 00:30:14

You're just creating a bunch of trainings

that nobody ever takes or they take

571

: 00:30:16

it while they do their expenses, like

that's not going to move the needle.

572

: 00:30:20

Cool.

573

: 00:30:20

Erich Starrett: Wrapping up here.

574

: 00:30:21

I would love to hear Dr.

575

: 00:30:23

Sean Fowler the future.

576

: 00:30:26

Give us, we'll give you the final word.

577

: 00:30:29

Where are we headed?

578

: 00:30:30

You mentioned earlier that you can

see over the next couple years,

579

: 00:30:34

those who are really embodying

this spirit of a cross functional

580

: 00:30:39

sales or revenue enablement role.

581

: 00:30:43

What do you see about the future?

582

: 00:30:44

What are those opportunities

for our listening audience?

583

: 00:30:48

Dr. Shawn Fowler: I would hesitate

to forecast any farther than three

584

: 00:30:50

or four years out, honestly, but

585

: 00:30:52

I think there's increasing recognition

of the role of enablement in change

586

: 00:30:59

management and increasing recognition

of the need for an explicit change

587

: 00:31:03

managing function in organizations.

588

: 00:31:06

So I think at least in more

successful companies, that's what what

589

: 00:31:11

enablements going to be seen as right?

590

: 00:31:13

I think one of the things that's going

to incorporate is increased focus on

591

: 00:31:18

frontline managers on both the new

and existing sales side of the house,

592

: 00:31:23

because the reality is everything lives

or dies for the frontline manager.

593

: 00:31:27

If the frontline manager cannot

effectively execute the change, or if

594

: 00:31:31

they're not bought in, or if they don't

understand clearly why they're doing what

595

: 00:31:35

they're doing and how it aligns with the

company's strategy, it's not going to work

596

: 00:31:39

and you're literally wasting your time.

597

: 00:31:41

You're wasting everyone's time to try

to do anything unless they're bought

598

: 00:31:46

in and equipped to be successful.

599

: 00:31:48

I think people are beginning to see

that and I think there's going to be

600

: 00:31:51

a shift, frankly, from the field to

frontline managers in terms of resources.

601

: 00:31:57

Those are the two biggest things

I think are going to happen.

602

: 00:31:59

Erich Starrett: I think AI is going

to evolve and facilitate some things.

603

: 00:32:04

I know there's a lot of AI

coaching and stuff like that.

604

: 00:32:06

I don't love it.

605

: 00:32:07

Candidly, but I think the power

of artificial intelligence to comb

606

: 00:32:12

through, for instance, the thousands

of minutes that are produced on a

607

: 00:32:15

weekly basis in gong or sales loft or

whatever, and distill that down into

608

: 00:32:20

insights or into moments that everyone

should take notice of can be really

609

: 00:32:24

powerful when it comes to training,

coaching, and identifying what works

610

: 00:32:29

great place to land, Sean.

611

: 00:32:31

. Thanks for all that you've done

for the profession, for Atlanta

612

: 00:32:34

for that matter specifically.

613

: 00:32:36

Maybe we can even get you out to a

Revenue Enablement Society meeting

614

: 00:32:40

here and have you wax poetic on

some of these things and help people

615

: 00:32:44

better understand the opportunity.

616

: 00:32:46

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Only if

there's beer afterward.

617

: 00:32:48

Erich Starrett: Yeah, absolutely.

618

: 00:32:49

For sure.

619

: 00:32:50

That wouldn't be face to face

without a beer at the bar.

620

: 00:32:55

Any final words you'd like to share,

Sean, on your way out the door

621

: 00:32:58

here in the orchestrate section?

622

: 00:32:59

Dr. Shawn Fowler: This was just wonderful.

623

: 00:33:00

It was a fantastic opportunity

to talk to you, Eric.

624

: 00:33:01

I really enjoyed it.

625

: 00:33:02

Erich Starrett: you too, man.

626

: 00:33:03

Great to see your face.

627

: 00:33:04

And I'm so excited for our listening

audience to benefit from this.

628

: 00:33:08

Appreciate your time

and we'll see you soon

629

: 00:33:11

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Thanks a lot, man.

630

: 00:33:11

Take care.