ISEs3 Ep8: Bob Kelly - Sales Management Association

Erich Starrett: 00:00:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome to ISE Inside Sales Enablement,

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Season 3, Enablement History.

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And today, I'm excited to have

in the Orchestrate Sales Studio,

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a man that knows a lot about the

past, present, and future of sales.

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With a side of sales enablement,

we're going to see what he has to say.

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, Mr.

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Bob Kelly, who is the founder

and chairman going since: 2010

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the Sales Management Association,

the only global cross industry

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professional association for managers.

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focused in sales force

effectiveness, . He's also an

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adjunct faculty of the Goizueta.

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I've never had to say that loud.

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Oh, how about

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Bob Kelly: Pretty good.

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Erich Starrett: All right.

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Business school right here at Emory

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Bob Kelly: University here in Atlanta.

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Goizueta was Roberto Goizueta.

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He was CEO of the Coca

Cola company in the 80s.

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Erich Starrett: there we go.

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And there's some history, , Coca

Cola here in Atlanta.

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I believe in fact, there's about to

be history made , on March 12th and

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13th the 2024 Salesforce productivity

event will be hosted on that very

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same Emory campus by Bob himself.

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And I'm sure we'll be

hearing more about that.

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Bob, anything else I missed

out in the intro before we

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dive into a question or two?

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Bob Kelly: Thanks for

plugging the conference.

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It's March 12th and 13th.

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So the business school is hosting

it for us and we normally have

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an event at least once a year.

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This is one of the first times

we've done that in the spring.

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So hope you can join for that.

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I would also just let your audience

know they can learn more about

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the conference from our website.

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Salesmanagement.

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org.

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And you can learn about

the conference there

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Erich Starrett: outstanding.

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And don't worry, folks we'll

circle back and give that to you

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again at the end if you missed it.

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So for now, Bob , sales enablement.

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, fiercely curious.

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When did you first hear those two words?

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2010.

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We're going back to , on my books,

the society itself didn't come into

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being really until 2016, but the

words have been around for a minute.

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When did you first hear them?

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What did they mean to you?

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What do they mean to you?

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Bob Kelly: where was I when

I heard those magic words?

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That's what you want to know.

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It's difficult to understand,,

when a new term comes along.

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Just how bad ish or long live it'll be.

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So I do have a little bit of history

about this term sales enablement, and

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this comes from a conversation I had a

few years ago with the person who I

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would call the Abner Doubleday of sales

enablement, and that's John Aiello at the

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time he was at a firm called Savo Group.

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Savo Group was a firm really at the

headwaters of this idea, sales enablement.

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John and his partner Drew Larsen.

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Now this is in the late 90s, early aughts.

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They were running a company that was

essentially doing marketing consulting

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for B2B sales organizations these

guys are really good marketers.

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They were creating really good content

and they were a little frustrated

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that it was sometimes difficult

for salespeople to find this stuff.

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And at the time that they'd created

a system for distributing content,

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they call it sales asset management.

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This is the precursor this is the

bronze age equivalent sales enablement.

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Erich Starrett: Yeah.

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I think Craig was calling

it that at the same time.

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Bob Kelly: yeah, it's good that you

mentioned him because his firm iCentera

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was also active around the same time.

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In fact, Aiello acknowledges that.

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The folks at iCentera may have also

been using this term, but they got

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some funding in 2004, raised some

capital, and coincident with that,

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they decided they need a more, they

needed a more highfalutin name for

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this stuff than Sales Asset Management,

and they adopted the moniker.

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sales enablement at that time.

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I'll give you some perspective on

what I thought that was . It was

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chiefly a solution for marketing.

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The people that bought sales

enablement were marketing.

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It was mostly solving a marketing problem.

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That problem was Marketing was creating

content and sales may not have really

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been making good use of that content.

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So this solved a problem for marketing

that was related to the sales

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organization's uncertain agency.

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We can't really control what the

sales force is doing with our stuff.

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We think a lot of it is going to waste.

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Sales enablement was grounded in

this distribution problem, getting

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content where it needs to be.

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This is a big problem, especially in large

companies with many, thousands of products

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those were the humble roots of

sales enablement, as I recall.

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And that was in the early 2000s.

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And then since then, I think it's

come to mean a little bit more.

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Erich Starrett: So then from there, what

about the society, the sales enablement

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society, and maybe even in the interim?

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I always go back to the 2008 is to me

the middle when Scott Santucci and in

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fact, we just spoke with Brian Lambert.

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That episode will be

coming out soon as well.

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I think Scott was the guy definitely put

the stake in the ground over at Forrester

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and then Brian was his first hire.

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And that clearly is our legacy

here at Orchestrate Sales.

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Brian and I started the site.

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But was there a bump in there when you

went, Oh, this thing's become official?

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Bob Kelly: Yeah.

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. I remember when the sales enablement

society came along, I always found it.

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You know a little intimidating.

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I'm not really the society type I

you know, I assumed you guys were

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like eating like cucumber sandwiches,

and having high tea over there

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Erich Starrett: Pinky's in the air.

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Love

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Bob Kelly: so I was a little put off

by that, but I think you know, my my

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General impression of these kinds of

organizations is that they tend to have

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a center of gravity one of two kinds I

mean they're either focused on creating

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content and new practices they're

create, they're focused on networking

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and the more social elements that is

getting people together, collaboration

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fraternization within the industry.

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And I think from what I've, I

know the society has been really

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good at that second thing.

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Erich Starrett: From a involvement

perspective, what element does

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enablement play in your business?

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Bob Kelly: Yeah, no it's an

important topic for our audience.

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Our audience is a little more I guess

general their interests are a little

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broader than sales enablement, but sales

enablement is certainly or, the kind of.

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Associated issues of, learning

and development or content

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management are things that are

relevant to our audience for sure.

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We tend to be more broadly

sales effectiveness focused,

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or sales management focused.

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but we have sponsors in our

organization we call them underwriters.

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They sometimes co create content with us.

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And we've had over the years.

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a number of vendors in this space,

including the the folks at Brain

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Shark, for example, for a long time,

or High Spot, or Seismic I so we've

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participated in the, in those ways,

learning what those solution providers

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have to say sometimes to our audience.

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And also, we do our own research

in areas related to what you

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guys call sales enablement and,

try to stay current in that way.

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Erich Starrett: I spent a little

bit of time on the site, and I was

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very pleased to see that you do

in fact have a sales enablement

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button as a subset of your search.

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I think it was 12 or 15 pages of content

I'd love to hear more of a peek behind

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the curtain, and again, for the benefit

of the audience, what might the value be

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of being a member if you are an enabler?

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Of joining officially becoming

a member of your site and

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coming out to the conference?

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Bob Kelly: Sure.

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That's a nice question to ask.

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Thank you for thinking

about it in that way.

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We are called the Sales

Management Association.

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We try to take the most broad approach

possible for getting at the issues

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relevant to running the sales force.

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My appeal to a lot of people who have

a niche focus IN sales support or

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helping sales forces is to learn about

the bigger, broader issues affecting

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sales leadership, sales governance.

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And I think this helps us greatly in

the mission to support the Salesforce.

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Sales organizations and sales leaders have

to rely on a lot of corporate functions

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that don't always have the content domain

expertise around sales and sometimes

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simply don't understand the peculiar

issues that affect the sales organization.

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So for sales enablement folks, especially

those that might be creating training or.

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Working on collateral it's important to

understand what those big issues are.

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We try to, put our arms around a very

diverse membership with that basic

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proposition, learn about the big

ideas and get a broad understanding.

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A liberal arts education about

what it means to work and to

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manage the sales function.

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,

there are a lot of issues confronting the sales force right now.

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One of them is the enormous

amount of change happening.

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How do organizations build

adaptiveness into their capabilities?

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Do we have the, the management

competency, for example, to

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lead change in the organization?

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Do we have the ability to change and adapt

sales process or value propositions in

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a way that can effectively adapt when

buying preferences change or markets

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change or the stuff we sell changes.

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These are really big issues that matter

a great deal to sales leaders right now.

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I think an enablement person has to be.

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on the very leading edge of how do

we help our organizations adapt.

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Also, what it means to help

people learn and develop in

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sales organizations is changing.

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Enablement as a function, has led the

way in that area in many respects.

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Erich Starrett: If we go back to

the founding of the sales enablement

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society, they talked about there

being 4 flavors of enablement,

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Bob Kelly: I think all

those areas are important.

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, the danger is getting

hung up on the semantics

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when I hear that four part charter

charter of sales enablement, the

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question that occurs to me is.

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Is there anything that is not included

in that definition of sales enablement?

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And I really don't think there is.

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So this is a problem.

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A sales leader will look at this

maybe in the context of we've got

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to double down on sales enablement.

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And they'll say, first of all,

what is this word enablement?

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Is that a word?

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I don't know about this.

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What is it specifically?

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And is there a direct connection between

The investments and activities of

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people in this area and their expected

impact in the business in a direct way.

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So that's a criticism of sales

enablement that I have that its too

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overreaching in its scope and definition.

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Only because it's poorly defined

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.

Erich Starrett: I'm part of the problem.

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Here's what I mean by that is that

what enablement really has gravitated

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toward is the talent portion of that.

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Going back to, , the roots of

the sales enablement society.

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Their vision for the role was much broader

and it included all of those areas.

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There are still some of us speaking

that language, the orchestrating a

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cross functional business within a

business Position number two was that

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it needed to be chartered and run that

way , but what most folks gravitated

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towards was really the training And

the enablement of the sales force, but

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not getting into those other areas.

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So there is a little bit of attention

even in the community where folks like

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me are going man There's still this huge

opportunity To orchestrate a dotted line.

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That's important.

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Cross functional business within

a business that is metrics driven.

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Starting with a charter and strategy

that is metrics based that is founded

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in dials that you can watch, that

the executive team is in alignment

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with , and almost more importantly,

that are leading with the value that

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your company can bring to that client.

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And as those dials are moving internally

towards delivering that value, the dials

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are moving externally because you're

actually providing value to the client.

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And you've aligned that

revenue engine, right?

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So what I talk about and i'm

excited about is the idea of

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an orchestrated revenue engine.

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Is that 100 enablement?

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No, it's a cross functional dotted line.

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And in fact, it might be With a CRO, CMO,

Chief Strategy, or Chief Sales Officer,

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either of the CSOs at the head of that.

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I love that you called that out,

and I hold myself accountable

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to being part of the problem.

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But to your point , there needs

to be that definition, there needs

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to be that stake in the ground.

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So thank you for pointing all of that out.

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What I would like to turn back to you and

say is, So Bob, what does good look like?

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Is there room for sales enablement?

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And what would that look like?

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Bob Kelly: honestly, despite, my sort of

quibbles with the name and everything.

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I don't really care what you call it.

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I think let's get down to the essential

value that the idea brings to the table

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I would put that in two broad categories.

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One is the, the efficient distribution

of content, the collateral, et

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cetera, the distribution problem.

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I think the technology associated

with sales enablement can

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help this solve this problem.

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Helping people find things,

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also getting things to

people, which is different.

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It's more pushing as opposed to asking

people to pull it when they need it.

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It's getting things to people in context,

where when and where they need it.

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The more important thing

is developing salespeople.

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We use this term now, development,

and we use it because we

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resist the term training.

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It's not as a great term.

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Training now brings to mind,

like jamming people in a room and

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making them listen to a lecture.

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I'm a journeyman educator too.

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So , it's interesting to me the

similarities in, , selling and , teaching.

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There.

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equally challenging, I think.

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,

we now know the limitations of simply trying to fill people up with knowledge.

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We don't do this anymore.

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, and in education, by the way, we call

this flipping the classroom, where you

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get people to learn stuff on their own,

and then you bring them together to solve

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problems in the classroom as a, give them

something to do that they're on the hook

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for, that they can't do unless they ask

questions and make them learn that way.

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Developing salespeople, it's very similar.

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We can give them this information.

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We can even push it out

to them when they need it.

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But to really have them develop skills

and applied knowledge, we have to

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observe them and we have to coach them.

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And this means, , objectively looking

at them, watching them, making judgments

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about them diagnosing root cause issues

associated with shortcomings and how

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they're performing, having assignments

and things we can prescribe to them

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to help them improve, judging that

improvement, monitoring that, and doing

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all this in a way that is collaborative

and customized to that person.

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And this is what is ideally done,

not by sales enablement, but by

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sales management who has authority

and who has accountability for

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the performance of that person

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Not always.

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In fact, it's a problem for the firm.

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It's not a sales enablement

or sales management problem.

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, so I see sales enablements

role is supporting that

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essential management function.

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I would like to see, sales

enablement at making better

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managers that should be the charter.

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Change it to something like that.

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, we're going to make management

better at developing salespeople.

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Erich Starrett: Bob in my observation

One of the biggest gaps has been that

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sales managers a lot of times are

brought up into that role from an

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individual contributor, and I just

heard you say that sales enablement.

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1 of the biggest opportunities is

exactly that to close that gap.

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What is being done right in that respect?

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And what could sales

enablement be doing better?

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If that is the sweet

spot of sales enablement.

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Bob Kelly: Yeah.

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So that's a great question.

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one of the things that I've seen

that is really effective is to

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rotate management candidates in and

out of sales effectiveness roles.

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Whatever those may be called.

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So you might have a, first line sales

manager whose promotion and a larger

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company is into sales operations, where

they learn about process and, back office

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technology issues and incentive comp

design and performance management issues.

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Or you might rotate them into a

training role or sales enablement

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role where they're, actually,

accountable for those responsibilities.

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That's one idea.

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Rotate people around, get them experience

in doing some of these different jobs.

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In general, though, I think something

at a macroeconomic level is happening

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in sales organizations that makes it

more important to develop salespeople.

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Maybe it's a few things happening.

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One of them is that the traditional

function of sales management, a

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nanny function, of supervising,

making sure people are doing the

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right things in the right spots, it's

largely a problem we automate now.

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So this has at least in theory,

freed up some capacity to focus on

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more substantive things like making

the sales organization better.

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Another maybe bigger issue is that

this is labor market economics.

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A lot is being made right now

of layoffs in the tech industry.

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But if you look at the overall economy

and across all sectors, employment

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is actually very robust and many

organizations are having trouble

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holding on to the best salespeople

and attracting the good new talent

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One way they do this is with places

that are nice places to work in and so

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companies that develop people are better

places to work and a more discriminating

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labor pool can make judgments.

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Based on that criteria, they

can say, I don't have to take

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the first job that comes along.

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I'd like to work at a place.

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Where I'm going to get better

and more marketable in the role.

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And we see that, developing people

and creating nice places to work for

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salespeople is an emerging vector of

competitiveness for sales organizations,

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and they're thinking more about it.

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Layer on top of that, the issue of

the sales organization has to change

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our research shows on average, large

sales forces reorganize every three years.

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And often that's in response to this

fundamental need to change how the

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sales organization delivers value.

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And so we have to be adaptable

and we also have to make people

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better in our organization.

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So this idea of sales enablement's

role in helping develop people, I

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think is more important than ever.

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And maybe more strategic than ever.

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Erich Starrett: Bob, I feel like

we've done a really good job covering

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enablement history and we talked

a good amount about the present.

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I know with your event coming up next

month in your present, you're thinking a

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good bit about the future, that event and.

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I can only assume some of those

topics are about the future of sales,

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the future of sales management.

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Can we maybe land on telling us what

folks can expect to learn about how they

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can be in the present here in Atlanta

at that event and learn about the

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future and drive additional productivity

in themselves and their teams.

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Bob Kelly: Yeah.

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Happy to.

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So there'll be four major tracks.

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The first is a sort of general and it

is sales leadership's new priorities.

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This is an opportunity to acknowledge

those things that we think are emerging

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areas of importance for leadership.

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Another is, we're calling it Bold

Futures in Sales Technology, and this

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is really an opportunity to acknowledge

some of the hand wringing and pearl

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clutching around AI, especially

the generative language based AI.

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Then we'll have two other sections.

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One is competing on sales talent.

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This is a place to talk about the

challenges that many organizations are

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having in attracting new salespeople

at, in certain sectors and also

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holding on to, the top sales talent,

which is, under siege in many firms.

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, fourthly, we'll talk about transformation.

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Managing really a better

term is leading change.

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In sales organizations, what's

management's role in that?

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Where are the areas, sales organizations

see themselves changing and how

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do firms adapt to those demands?

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We'll have a few great speakers.

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We'll have a President of

Corporate Sales at UPS.

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We'll have a Senior Vice President

of Performance Effectiveness

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at Cox Communications.

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We'll have Senior Leaders From a couple

of other Georgia companies Great Dane

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let's see, we'll have some folks from

Schlumberger, from Asea Brown Boveri,

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ABB a number of other industrial firms

anyway, that's all I can think of

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at the moment, hope you can join us.

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Erich Starrett: Bob, thank you so

much for that and for joining us.

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And again, folks you've got

to get out salesmanagement.

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org.

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And I'm very pleased to share both

in partnership with Bob here on

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the podcast, but almost more over

on the Technology Association of

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Georgia here locally, of which I'm a

proud member for a decade or three.

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Has teamed up with Bob to offer

up a promotion code, which is

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being part of the TAG family.

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: 00:22:54

And it doesn't, if whether you're

here in Georgia locally or coming

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: 00:22:58

from overseas, T-A-G-F-A-M is

the promo code you can plug in.

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: 00:23:04

And Bob, tell 'em a little

bit more about that.

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: 00:23:06

Do they get a little

knock off the price or

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: 00:23:08

Bob Kelly: They do.

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: 00:23:09

Yeah, you say, so that lowers

the registration cost for

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you from $895 to $4.95.

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The code is TAGFAM.

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Erich Starrett: Awesome, Bob.

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Thanks for sharing that.

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Thanks TAG for being part of our extended

family and Bob for being right here

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in Atlanta and leading the charge to

elevate sales management enablement

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and sales management specifically.

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Great to have you on the show Bob.

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Bob Kelly: Thanks so much

for having me, Erich.

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Really enjoyed it.

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Thank you.

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Erich Starrett: Pleasure.